Rick Suchow: Bass

"I practiced at home for about a half a year, four hours a day. And I meditated all day. I was into some sort of a spiritual discipline thing in 1971 or '72. I don't know how to explain it. That was the only time in my life I've actually practiced for any length of time."


Bill Milkowski caught up with Jaco in the summer of 1984, and the resulting interview was published in the August issue of Guitar Player Magazine that year. Here is the complete reprint of that interview.



Practically a trademark of your onstage appearance is a well-worn Fender Jazz Bass. Why do you continue to play the same old beat-up instrument?.

Because it sounds good. My fretless, which is probably what I'm most noted for, is a '62 Jazz Bass that I got in Margate, Florida, for $90.00 with a case. I got it when I was 19, so I've had it for about 13 years now. My fretted bass is even older-- it's a '60 Fender Jazz Bass that I got for $90.00 from a saxophone player in Florida named Ben Champion.

Did you buy your bass with the frets already removed, or did you take them out?
When I got the bass, the cat who had it had taken the frets out himself, and he did a really bad job of it-- left all kinds of nicks and chunks taken out of the fretboard. So I really had to fix it up. I filled in all the chunks with Plastic Wood. Hell, when I was a kid, I used to make a living by fixing and dealing old, beat-up instruments. I was the first cat to use epoxy on the neck of a fretless bass so the strings wouldn't eat th neck away.

What did you use, and how did you apply it?
I used Petite's Poly-Poxy; it's boat epoxy. You can find it in any boating supply store around Florida. It's the toughest epoxy they make. You apply it with a brush, and it takes several coats. I used about six coats on my fretless, and it took about a day for each coat to dry.


Did that harm the action?

Not at all. It's essential. It saves the instrument from getting eaten up by the roundwound strings, there's nothing left of the neck.


You've been playing your fretted Fender a lot lately.

That's all I've been playing, really. See, last year, when we were in Europe, my fretless got dropped off the plane or something, and the neck got broken. So for the whole last tour I haven't used it at all. It's back in Florida getting repaired. I'm just waiting for the glue to resettle.


What is it about the old Fenders that you like so much?

The old Fenders really have a punch, and not just a treble punch, either. More like clear lower-mids;plus, they're quick. You can play that fretless real fast. And I feel comfortable with these. I've had lots of people make basses for me, and I own different sorts of them. I've probably owned over a hundred in my life, but none of them sound like these old ones.


So you have checked out a number of instruments then, including headless ones such as the Steinberger?

Yeah, Sting turned me on to the Steinberger. The first time I ever saw one was when I went to see The Police. I tell you, Sting's a beautiful cat. We had heard about each other and talked to each other on the phone, but we had never hooked up. So when I went to see him, the first thing he said to me was, "Hey, Jaco, come on back and check out my bass." I like them. They're real good basses. I have one now, but I just haven't had enough time to even explore it. You see, one of the main reasons I use these same old basses is because I've worked so hard and so long on the road-- forever-- that to get another new instrument at this point, I really feel like I would have to learn how to play it from scratch. I mean, I know everything about these basses of mine, every bit of chicken grease and every drop of sweat that's ever been on them. These things are beat up alright, but I hardly put any scars on them at all; the only ones are thumb marks. Other than that, I have not made a mark on them. Man, I used to do one-and-a-half flips off my amps and land on them-- looked like I was killing them. But I never really touched them. It was an illusion-- all entertainment. That's what I am: I'm an entertainer.


Did you drop new pickups into your fretless?

Nope. Totally stock. The only things that weren't on there originally are the potentiometers. I've replaced them, but they're still Fender pots.


Did you go through a lot of trial and error before arriving at your choice of strings?

Nope. I just use standard Rotosound strings-- the round-wound Swing Bass set.


What about your amps? I use two Acoustic 360's, which is the same setup I've been using for the last 13 years. Same amps-- old reliables. I usually put the bass setting all the way up and the treble about halfway up, depending on the condition of the strings. The older your strings are, the more treble you have to have, because the fidelity of the string really starts losing it after a while. In the studio, though, I just go direct.


What kind of effects pedals do you use?

I have an old makeshift fuzztone. There's no brand name at all. You can hear a good example of it in action on the title cut from the Word Of Mouth album, my last studio album. It's got a built-in delay that I can put on infinite repeat whenever I want to lay down some kind of track to play on top of in concert.


This effect is similar to current electronic delays.

I travel so much and play so much and I'm constantly on the road, so I never get a chance to check up on all the latest hardware. And besides, I don't really rely on effects all that much. I play an electric bass, but I deal mostly with acoustic phenomena. The sound is in my hands and in my fingers, not in some pedal.


Any other effects?

I've got an MXR Digital Delay, which I put through one amp, leaving the other amp clean, to cause a natural sort of vibrato. It's almost like an organ Leslie effect or like a flanger. A good example of that effect is the title cut from the 8:30 album, or the tune "Continuum" from the live Invitation album. I also used that effect a lot on the Joni Mitchell records, particularly on "Coyote" and "Hejira" on Hejira, or "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" and "God Must Be A Boogie Man" on Mingus.


How did you approach those Joni Mitchell sessions?

I approach each night-- even now with my own band-- totally different. I hope. Otherwise it wouldn't be fun. But I liked working with Joni. I really like Hejira.


Was there one incident in particular that got you into playing the bass?

Yeah. I started out as a drummer, but I broke my left wrist in a football game when I was 13, and I couldn't hit the snare drum anymore. My wrist would almost shatter. It was like glass. Then, when I was 17, my whole left arm from the shoulder down went completely numb. If someone would pinch me, I wouldn't feel anything. It turned out there was a calcium deposit or something, and it was just strangling it. So I had an operation to fix it when I was 17, and then the feeling came back. Well, I had always wanted to be a musician, and I tried to play every instrument. When I was 15, I was in a band called the Las Olas Brass. There was another drummer, Rich Franks, who was older than me and was a much better player, technically, at the time. The band members wanted him instead of me, so I quit playing drums. But at the same time, the bass player, David Neubauer, was leaving. He played a Hofner and was the best bass player in Florida. He was phenomenal at 13, but he couldn't stand being in the band because everybody was getting high and drunk and everything-- except for me. I was always straight. So David quit, and I just sort of agreed to then go to the bass spot.


Just like that?

Yes. I can more or less pick up any instrument and play it. I mean, that's like a gift that I guess I was blessed with. Like, coming up as a kid, I just didn't repair basses. I used to repair trumpets, saxes, drums-- anything. I got to know all these instruments. And that's how I learned about harmonics. It's simply that the overtone series on a string is exactly the same principle as on a trumpet.



How many different ways do you get harmonics?

For students who want to learn the basics of harmonics, all you've got to do is get a really good violin book and read about flageolet tone. It's been done for years and years on violins, cellos, etc. All you've got to do is learn where they're at, spend a lot of time working on it, and know what they are. If you learn all the open string harmonics on a bass-- all the natural harmonics-- you can play just about every note chromatically. The other way is your picking technique. Let's say on "Birdland", for example, where I pick out that intro part on harmonics, I get that sound by using my thumb on my right hand to lightly touch the string at the octave and picking behind it, almost like a steel guitar player would. You can get harmonics that way; it's just a matter of subdividing the string. So I play the note with the left hand on the fingerboard, holding it down. Then with my right-hand thumb, I'll be on the note an octave higher, up around by the pickup, and pluck the string with my first and second fingers behind the thumb. That way you hear the harmonic. It's actually very simple. You just have to spend a lot of time doing it, and you've got to have really good chops because it hurts your fingers. You have to pick it very hard to get it to come out.


What techniques did you use for "Portrait Of Tracy"?

Stretching. You hit the note with your left-hand ring finger, and then stretch your index finger to catch the harmonic. In other words, you're using your left hand as a capo the other way. So on that tune I'm hitting a B with my ring finger on my left hand and stretching my index finger all the way over to a D# harmonic.


Is there any way of writing out your harmonic playing?

Yeah, I can do it. You can put it on a treble clef-- way up on the telephone poles-- or you can write it out on a bass clef like a cello part. They're just flageolet tones. There are legit ways of doing it: cello books, violin books. I have different ways of writing them down, though. Sometimes I indicate harmonics just be using a different colored pen.


Is the technique of playing harmonics something you had to work on, or did you fall into it right away?

Oh, yeah, immediately. Actually, the way I did it was just from tuning up. I heard it as music right away, as opposed to just tuning. You know how you tune up to harmonics? I just heard it as something to start exploring. I was just lucky enough to get on the instrument at a time when it was still relatively new, and I just explored it, just looked at it a different way. I had never heard anybody play like that or look at the bass in that way before. So I started doing it myself.


Any other techniques involving your hands rather than effects?

There's a sound I get, a percussive kind of sound, almost like a conga. I get it by hitting the strings with my right palm, getting a rhythmic thing going, and then just quickly sliding my palm down the neck, from the bridge to the nut. It adds some meat in appropriate places. I used that at the end of "John And Mary" from the Word Of Mouth album. And you can hear it on "The Elder" from the Mr. Gone album.


Do you read music?

Yeah.


Do you have a degree?

Let's say I'm formally self-taught.


What was the teaching gig you landed at the University of Miami?

Whit Sidner, who ran the jazz department, asked me to teach there. Will Lee's father, Dr. WIlliam Lee, was the dean of music at the time. Hiram Bullock, the guitar player, was one of my students. I give him an "A". Curtis Lundy was also a student. Mark Egan, Frank Gravis...


What did you teach your students?

Most of them, just how to tune up and what the names of the strings are. For instance, there was a guy in class named Jeff Sanchez, a Cuban bass player. I give him an "F". He could not play a single note. He didn't know anything; he was like first learning music. But right now he's probably one of the best bass players in Florida. So I guess that just goes to show how valuable school is for some players. But in general, I was mostly teaching my students how to play basic scales-- nothing too advanced.


Why did you leave that teaching position?

It was driving me nuts. I was just there for one semester. I could have stayed there for as long as I wanted, but I'm a player.


What are your views on the music education system today?

I suggest that the teachers should just lighten up. If a student wants to lean something, a teacher should help direct him to where he's actually already headed-- just help him along. The important thing see in any kind of teaching situation, especially music, is that teachers still have to be players. They should be staying in touch with the craft, with the music. There are certain people who might think they're great teachers, but they can't play anything. And I think students have a greater respect for teachers who are also players. I mean, that is what it's all about: playing! Also, I would suggest that in addition to studying out of books, everybody should definitely listen to some rhythm and blues, because that's what it is.


You've now worked in so many different contexts. How do you approach a gig with a big band as opposed to a smaller ensemble?

For one thing, I like to make a big band sound like a small band, to go for the tightness that you'd find in a smaller band. The group I have now with two horns and a guitar is able to get a lot of sounds and still be very tight. With a big band, it's a little more difficult to get that same kind of swiftness. It's just basic physics: the more people, the slower the air is moving. So the main thing I try to do is just get them all to swing, to pay attention an not be talking to each other about last night's reruns of the Mary Tyler Moore Show when they're not playing.


Does your role as a bass player change in different contexts?

One thing: with a big band, it's a little easier on me since I don't have to play as much, because of the roles that other people are filling. So with a big band i tend to play more fundamental bass. And with a small band I can go "out". I've been writing for big bands ever since I could write. In fact, most of the tunes you hear on my records and in concert, I actually wrote 12 or 13 years ago.


Any comments on the changing role of the bass?

Just the fact that it's more amplified now and you can hear it, which is nice.


Who are some of the bassists who you feel helped to change the role of the instrument over the years?

Jimmy Blanton, who played with the Duke Ellington band. Jerry Jemmott, Bernard Odum, Duck Dunn, and of course Monk Montgomery.


What are some of the things that young bassists ask you about?

Most young bass players ask me questions about harmonic stuff more than anything else. But that's really a very small part of my thing. Harmonics is only about a hundredth of my playing. It's really easy to play harmonics, anybody can do it. But it's another thing to be able to swing, to make the band swing, to create a groove. Harmonics ain't everything. Being able to play harmonics certainly does not make you a good bass player. Cleverness is no substitute for true awareness.


What advice do you have for young bassists?

Learn tunes. Learn melodies. Most bass players make the mistake of just learning bass lines and nothing else. But you have to concentrate on learning a piece of music thoroughly, which includes melody and harmony and theory, as well-- mainly the melody though. All bass players should become more melody-conscious.


Are there any young bass players coming up today who you find exciting?

Charlie Haden and Steve Swallow [laughs}. No, seriously, I'd say Marcus Miller. He's a beautiful cat. Victor Bailey is playing beautifully. Mark Egan is beautiful. He's a great player. I also dig Andy Gonzales.


Do you still practice?

I keep saying that I'm going to start again, but I haven't had time to practice as much as I'd like. I very rarely have practiced because I don't need to. I was on gigs every night of my life from the time I was 15 years old. When I was in Florida as the house bassist at the Bachelors III nightclub, I used to play eight shows a night. But whenever I do get a chance to practice, I play do re mi fa so la ti do, and see if I can still remember how to do that-- then go on from there. I try to physically keep my chops together by playing whatever pops into my head-- mostly just running a major scale and working on arpeggios and triads.


How long did it take for you to acquire those chops?

I don't have 'em yet [laughs]. I'm still working on it. I've been playing the Fender bass since I was 15, so it's been a while now.


Do you practice piano?

I never really seriously practiced anything but the bass. I do fool around on drums a little bit just to work off tension, but the Fender Jazz Bass is the only thing I've really legitimately practiced, which is hard to say, since there are no legitimate books for bass players-- at least I haven't found any. But I haven't had time to look too hard. So really, most of what I've got now has just come from my playing. I mean, I've worked so much. When I was in Wayne Cochran's band, the C.C. Riders, it got to a point where I was always on the bus or else playing in some small club somewhere. My daughter was getting old and I was never seeing her. I wasn't seeing anybody, and I wasn't making any bread either, so I finally decided that it was time for me to go into another thing. So I left that band and started to woodshed it, practicing at home for about a half a year, about four hours a day. And I meditated all day, I was into some sort of a spiritual discipline thing in 1971 or '72. I don't know how to explain it. That was the only time in my life that I've actually practiced for any length of time. But I want to start up again, mainly because of Mike Stern. He's a consummate musician. He practices a lot and he's really dedicated. And he makes me stretch every night. To see somebody who really cares that much about the music is so inspiring to me and makes me reflect on my own playing.


Can you elaborate on your rapport with Mike?

I love Mike Stern. Man, I remember him from Blood, Sweat & Tears, years ago. He was so insecure then, but he's grown up to be a man now. And he's playing his butt off. Me, Mike, and Don Alias all played together in Blood, Sweat & Tears back around '76. Bobby Columby was playing drums in the band, and he ended up producing my first solo album. Don Alias and I had been playing together for a while behind Lou Rawls, doing all these show gigs. But I stopped doing that to go out on the road with Blood, Sweat & Tears. They needed a bass player because Ron McClure had just left the band. My first gig with BS&T was at the Ed Sullivan Theater in New York City. I had to fly in on a shuttle plane from Boston, and the weather was unbelievable. We couldn't land. I was up in the air in one of those old prop planes for hours, man. We almost ran out of gas. But I made the gig, and that's how I hooked up with BS&T.


And then Mike Stern joined the band?

Yeah, within a couple of weeks, Bobby Columby got him into the band. So we played together for about six weeks. I had never really joined the band as a permanent member. I was more or less subbing for Ron McLure. But I met Stern, and we had a good time together in that band. But then I decided that I wanted to do a record of my own stuff because as a composer, I just had too much music inside of me and I was starting to get frustrated. I had to let it out. So I left the band and Bobby Columby arranged for me to do the album.


So now you've come full circle with your old buddies in this new band?

Yeah-- Don Alias, Stern, and also Melton Mustafa, the trumpet player, is an old friend from Florida. Melton grew up in Liberty City in Miami, so I was playing with him way back when. It's all in the family, all coming back around now-- just a combination of jazz and rhythm and blues. And it ain't fusion music, which I think sucks. I like rhythm and blues and jazz. That's what I grew up with. I mean, jazz is rhythm and blues. So anyway, I grew up with Melton but he got drafted and had to join the Navy, so that broke up that relationship. I was lucky enough to draw a very high number in the draft lottery, so they missed me. Melton went away and I kept playing music. I was fortunate enough to go to the service in the streets of America, which is actually worse-- especially in Liberty City, man.


So you say you play jazz and R&B music. How do you react to the term "fusion"?

Just as I was learning how to say "jazz", they had to change it to "high-energy crossover fusion music". I don't like terms. I don't like being called a fusion musician. I would just like to consider myself a musician. But whatever they call whatever it is, it don't bug me. I would like to just be considered a decent bass player, you know? A fundamental, solid bass player. That's all.


How do you assess your own playing? Do you think you've improved?

Without a question of a doubt. Otherwise, I'd quit. I'm growing. I don't consider it all as growth. And there's lots of different things that come out of music due to experiences of being on the road. So in that sense, too, I'm constantly growing. Plus, I've hit on so many things that I've just touched on and never really had the time to explore. But I'm starting to make time. Right now, I'm playing better than ever. My chops are there. I mean, I wouldn't want to be a bass player and have to listen to me right now, because the stuff is really starting to happen, and it must be scary. And it has nothing to do with ego or being better or this or that. It's just that I know what it is too.


Describe your earliest musical influences.

I was influenced a great deal by my father Jack, who is a great jazz drummer. He's still playing around the Philadelphia area. In fact, I sat in with him a while back in Philly. He's the greatest. He played with me at the Savoy last year. I called him up and we did a real hip arrangement of "Watch What Happens". He's a singer, man. He's been a traveling musician all his life.


Any specific players who inspired you early on?

No, not really. I just listened to whatever was on the radio-- everything from the Beatles to James Brown to Frank Sinatra to Sly Stone and Jimi Hendrix. That was the real inspiration. A big influence was Cachao, the number one Cuban bassist. I just heard a lot of different kinds of music growing up in Florida, so I was able to explore more stuff at an early age. Soul music, Cuban music, swamp music, blues, rock and roll, Caribbean music, steel pan music from Trinidad, all the old Stax/Volt records.


You've been working on a steel pan album. Is it available?

It's not out yet. It's almost completed. I've been working on that for about four years, on and off. It's amazing. I'm going to call it Holiday For Pans. We do a complete symphonic thing of David Rose's "Holiday For Strings". It's ridiculous! You've got to hear it to believe it.


Are you playing bass on the album?

Not much. Mostly bass pans. I've been playing steel pans for years. I own about a hundred different kinds of steel pans. Hell, I've got a big warehouse full of oil cans in Florida. I have supported all the steel drum players in Florida for years. Othello Molineaux and a cat named Leroy Williams, who both played on my first album, also play on this steel pan album. In fact, Othello has played on all my albums. He was a member of the Word Of Mouth big band that toured the States and Japan. Anyway, Othello and I have designed a new harmonic way of tuning a steel drum. There are many different ways, but there was a certain thing that we were looking for, and we got it. Besides that, the album has all sorts of stuff-- horns on some tracks, the LA Philharmonic for one piece, a children's choir.


When will it be released?

I guess it depends on the powers that be.


The record industry? Them too, providing there is any future in the record industry for creative music. I'm really getting tired of the whole thing, to tell you the truth-- the whole game you have to play, dealing with the record industry on its terms instead of your terms.


Can you pick out some essential cuts that represent different landmarks in the evolution of your technique?

People always ask me, "What is your favorite album?" or, "What is your favorite tune?" or, "Who is your favorite musician?" The only answer I have is: I have four beautiful kids, and none of 'em is my favorite.


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