"The first time you play, when you're young and you realize that you're actually playing, that you're the one making it happen... to stay aware of that incredible energy and honesty... that's what it's about."
While on tour with Joni Mitchell's Shadows And Light tour on 1980, Jaco found time to grant Musician Magazine's Damon Roerich an interview in Los Angeles, which appeared in the August issue later that year. Below is a reprint of the complete text of the interview, with the sidebar of Jaco's comments on his equipment at the end.
Musician: Why do you feel people get hung up in limited musical bags?
Pastorius: Fear. They're limited also -- in their thinking, listening or playing. I'm playing on this Joni Mitchell tour and a lot of people and critics who come to see her have listened to her first few albums -- which I haven't even heard-- and they want to hear her like that because that's where they're comfortable. They don't want to grow but she grows and they put her down. You know? It doesn't make much sense. A form of fear. I haven't read the reviews because I never do read them. But you do hear talk about them. People talk about reviews they've read in the dressing room -- they feel funny. But musically they feel good because they're growing.
If radio promoted creative music instead of playing down to the listener, how well do you feel that would go over?
I'll tell you, probably not too much because if good music was promoted then they couldn't sell all the tons of shit and make all this incredible money which is... the entertainment business is at fault as much as anything else for inflation. To me it looks like Germany in the thirties, right? Pretty soon we'll be able to wallpaper our walls with U.S. dollars because everything is so out of control. So I don't think that radio is ready to do this -- yet. They've got to keep this influx coming and doing all this shit that the record industry is doing right now, which is completely numbing society with a ton of bullshit. There's not all that much good music in the first place to play.
What are they going to play? (Smiles) They're going to play Weather Report -- who else? I gotta be honest with you, who else is really creating new music that isn't all serious? There's some people playing today but the shit's so serious! We're out there having some fun, too, and we're <>playing. So I can understand why people might be hooking up on us. We're not trying to create anything different, we're just playing -- the way we are. It's just the natural combustion that happens when we get together and people seem to like it.
But, to get back to the radio thing. I don't think that's going to happen, to be realistic. If it did happen, people would definitely listen and think a little more because their brains would loosen up a bit more... you're sitting there and you're badgered by the same monotonous music, it's al;most as if it's a plot-- the way music is today-- to sound the same and therefore keep people the same.
Where's rock and jazz influenced music headed, in your view?
It's going to Fort Lauderdale. That's where I'm going on Monday. (Laughs) What can I tell you? I can play rock & roll and I can play jazz. I don't know too many people who can do both. And that's the future.
How did you meet Ira Sullivan?
I was writing tunes in Miami and Ira had a piano player at the time named Alex Darqui. He played on my first record on one tune. He's a very good friend of mine, we grew up playing together. Alex would bring in my music when they were gigging, because it was original music, you know, local music. Ira started playing it and really liked it. At the time, I was playing with Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders and, when I got back to Florida, I quit the band because I wanted to practice. Ira called me to write more music. One of the times, I came in with my bass and played "Donna Lee" for him and that was it!
Ira Sullivan and Wayne Cochran-- what a combination!
That's just two of many. Musically, I was early into rhythm & blues and jazz-- singing jazz, like Sinatra. The Beatles, Sinatra and James Brown were probably my biggest influences. After that, Miles Davis. My daddy was a musician, but he left home when I was very young. I'm formally self-taught.
What was the first record you ever bought?
That I can't remember. Probably something like James Brown or the Beatles, some 45 like "I Got You" or "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" or some Rolling Stones' first hits. That's when I had some money in my pocket, when I was about twelve. But I didn't have a record player. (Laughs) So it didn't matter. "Get Off My Cloud"... something like that.
What other artists do you dig?
Hard to say. I like Picasso. I like philosophers. I like Nietszche, I like Christ-- as a philosopher... I really like... I dug this guy, Caravaggio, way back around Michelangelo. He was one of the first artists to draw-- he was crazy! He drew big murals but he would never use guidelines. He would just put paint right to canvas, which was pretty amazing, and the stuff looks like Michelangelo! Check him out-- Caravaggio. Anybody who's doing something great, I like. Chagall, Elvis Presley, I'm very close-minded. There's just a mass ignorance thing going on-- people are taught not to think. So anything that's uniques, I like.
What's it like to work with Zawinul?
(Brightens considerably) Great! That's where I've done most of my work with synthesizers. I'm a composer and Joe can play all the parts. For instance, there's a tune I wrote on Mr. Gone called "Punk Jazz" and it sounds like it's written for strings and brass and Joe's played all the parts. I brought in the score. He played every note by himself. A thirteen piece score. I'd say, "I want a string section here, I want brass here, I want maybe a few flutes here," and he goes for it. I love working with Joe.
What problems do you encounter in the studio?
Mainly the pressure of time. I'm always on the road even when I'm in the studio. Joe gets to go home because he lives out here. Sometimes, engineers have problems understanding what Joe and I are going for.
What were you hearing the last time your imagination was peaking?
That's hard to say. Usually when I'm peaking, I'm playing. So the information is coming to me. Somehow, I understand that I have my hand in it, that I'm actually doing it, that I'm making the music come out. But I don't actually know or believe that the music's actually coming from me, though, it's almost like it's coming through me., like it's in the air. Without the eyes, you wouldn't see. Without the sun, a prism isn't caused. You wouldn't see it. The sound somehow comes through me. You get your technical thing together and then you have to totally open up and be free. Not be free-- surrender to it! Then it will come through you. Writing will actually come the same way. It will come on the piano or the bass or whatever I'm playing at the time. A set of drums.
Do you feel that the greater range of sounds today, that can be played, say on the synthesizer, actually increases the artist's imagination?
No question. Definitely. He has it in hand. You can't go out and hire a brass quintet every time you want to write for a brass quintet. With a synthesizer, you can get a very close sound.
What results do you see in the future from the cross-pollenation of musical and engineering concepts? Say, something like holographic sound?
It's happening already. I'm not that much concerned with it. What I'm concerned with is the music itself. Whatever technical thing I need to keep up with for what I want to know is about it. Personally, what I need is some time off. Because I want to practice my bass.
Do you think critics help or hinder the musical experience?
They've got to hurt it. Because of one thing. They don't know what they're talking about. If someone's going to judge us, you don't get someone who knows nothing about it! Critics are judges. If you want a critique on the Bolshoi Ballet, you don't send a country & western critic. Simple as that. And, if someone's in the new territory, who is to judge? Plus the fact that, if you don't like something, don't write about it!
Why do you call your music Punk Jazz?
Well, it's not from Punk Music. It's punk, like... I'm a punk. A street kid. Like in the streets, a punk used to be a... someone who's a wiseguy. And I'm sort of a wiseguy inasmuch as I don't give a shit! Punk is not a bad word. It's sort of someone you respect because he's got enough balls to stick up for himself. It has nothing to do with Punk Music like with needles sticking through your nose. I've had this title for years, ten years. Punk Jazz. Much before this English music. It has that feel.
What effects do you feel music has on the body? (We were looking over a declassified Pentagon study of the use of sounds in warfare.)
I believe that sound and music definitely has a need to be used for some good right now. There's all this pollution. Something's gotta change-- you can't polish a turd. And something major's going to happen. I'm just going to live and be as happy as I am all the time. I don't see any point in getting too negative about it. I'm going to get myself, my music, my family together because something is going to happen! This is the shit I'm really interested in, 'cause this is what's going on!
Scientists support Zawinul's theory that certain sounds can heal and kill. Any experiences along this line?
I haven't experienced killing but-- I won't say that I've healed-- but many times I've played for people who are sick. And it works. I used to play for mental patients at hospitals precisely for this reason. The doctors over there knew that every time we played, everything got much hipper. I know that certain sounds can cure, too. Edgar Cayce's got a lot of studies on this. I was standing in front of a bass amp onstage once and it wasn't all that loud, but the frequency... I shit in my pants! The sound was like an enema. It actually happened to me. But good music really soothes the body. I don't want to talk about it because I'm no expert, I just know how to do it.
What gives Weather Report its power and creativity?
The combustion of the people and how each one of us grew up. Lack of fear and the ability to make decisions, as opposed to waiting and be told what to do. We all have an incredible musical background, for lack of a better term-- a melting pot.
I've never talked to Joe about it but something comes through me-- like I said, the instruments are just there to help out. I'll get it out during the day by telling a joke or something. It could be another dimension but... aesthetic energy is a good word for it, actually. It's something that's definitely coming... I compared it earlier to the rays from the sun. It's a power. When you're with good people it's like an avalanche. Everything goes right when you're honest, giving, and sharing. You don't learn anything without sharing. I think, although I don't like to compare, that most people think too much of themselves in a physical way. "What am I going to do today, I gotta pay a bill." My only concern is being healthy, my music, my wife, first, and then everything will take care of itself. I was smart enough in high school-- I don't have to worry about intelligence. People are always trying to be cool, to prove this point. You don't prove nothing! I can say for our group that we don't have any competition because we're not competing.
Would it be helpful for science to discover a way to enable the artist to turn up the volume and fidelity of that aesthetic energy?
One way might be to take care of artists, to make it easier for them to live. But then I know that my stuff is so honest because I grew up rough and graduated. I don't know that this energy might not be on a spiritual level. Or a philosophical level. I don't know where it's from. A combination, a trinity sort of thing-- the heart, the spirit, and the knowledge. The music comes from the shit you grew up with and maybe something extra that we don't know.
Joe and I seem, when we're improvising, like we're one guy. We'll be choosing notes but we don't know what we're playing in advance. Let's say we're improvising just chords, we'll be playing something that's fitting-- all music will fit if you play it with enough confidence-- but its not a short cut. We're actually playing something and taking the biggest chances and it's almost always harmonius. There must be some form of telepathy in there. Joe might call it the fourth dimension. Whatever it is, it's unique, like a fingerprint. Everyone's got it.
The first time you play, when you're young and you realize that you're actually playing, that you're the one making it happen... to stay aware of that incredible energy and honesty... that's what it's about.
I take performing for granted. I don't get nervous. It's like my responsibility. It comes through me. When I listen to it back, I usually like it because I'm playing my best, I feel, because I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just there. Usually when I listen to it back I have a good laugh.
Pastorius On Equipment
"As a bass player I use two old Acoustic 360's on stage. In the studio I go direct. Unless I want to use a fuzz tone or something, which I use with my amp. On stage I use two Acoustic 360's and there's a new amp, I think it's 440, I use two of those. They've got four 15 inch gausses in them. And I've got them in tandem so I've got this old Acoustic with this incredible bass presence that pushes you just like an R&B sound. You feel good, you can feel the bass in it and it never breaks up. Then I've got
the four 15 gausses that are high-sounding so I get an incredible clarity. I've also got an MXR digital delay. I put it through one amp and the other amp will go clean to cause a natural sort of vibrato, almost like an organ Leslie. I play lots of harmonics and it really gives me an incredible timbre."
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Musician, August 1980